Clyde's Kelly Hall Shares Tips for Moving from a Big Organization to a Startup and a Framework for Making the Decision
Kelly Hall broke a major rule of negotiation when she was interviewing for her current job at product protection startup Clyde.
She'd gotten an offer to join Clyde as VP of Channel Strategy and wanted to take it, so she went to tell her previous employer she would be resigning. But instead of accepting her resignation, they responded with a surprising counter-offer. She brought it back to her hiring manager at Clyde, who happened to also be the CEO, and waited for his response.
Using a counter-offer to drive up a starting salary is a classic negotiating move, and one that we've encouraged women to consider. But the waiting was getting to Kelly—"I was losing my mind, emotionally," she remembers—so she reached out to her former employer and told them that she couldn't accept their counter, then got back in touch with her future boss and told him what she'd done.
Even though she could've kept negotiating, Kelly wanted to start her new job off with as much transparency as possible. "I believe that honest communication pays higher dividends," she says. "So it was important to me to let him know that I had officially declined the counteroffer."
What are rules good for, anyways? They're guidelines to help you get what you need, and when they work, that's great. But Kelly learned that following her instincts and her values got her to where she needed to be in the end. (Including with her offer: Clyde's CEO came back with what she calls "a very compelling addition to the original offer," even after knowing she'd turned the counter down. She accepted it and joined the team a couple of months ago.)
We sat down with Kelly to talk about her career path, the framework she used when deciding to leave a large, established company to join Clyde (a startup), and her tips for other women who are negotiating job offers with startups.
From startups to major players and back again
Kelly's current role as VP of Channel Strategy at Clyde has her focusing on understanding new verticals and markets, determining how to position the company within them to reach their target market. Though she's excited to be part of a fast-growing team, she acknowledges that for her, having worked for enterprise-level companies helped her to get to this point. "Personally, I think I'm in a better position to be successful because I'm bringing experience into the startup. I don't know that I would've been able to pull this off as my first or second gig; I wouldn't have had the foresight or experience to really shake things up had I made this leap earlier," she explains.
When Kelly kicked off her career in sales, it was with a small company called Hands On Systems that provided billing for mobile carriers right as mobile and internet technology were converging. "It was literally guys in their garage who built this platform," she says. She loved the fast-paced nature of scaling her sales as the market grew.
When that company was acquired by Verisign, she found herself transitioning into a much more structured environment. "It was 'small and scrappy' versus 'large and secure,'" says Kelly. "In a smaller organization, you have the opportunity to touch things more directly, which I love. But there's something to be gained from working at a larger organization that has tremendous resources and support."
Kelly then spent several years working with other big players (Asurion and AmTrust) before she met the Clyde CEO and COO, Brandon Gell and Jereme Holiman, at the Consumer Electronics Show in Vegas this year. She'd been running into issues in her sales cycle and realized she didn't have the resources to solve them. "It started to be apparent that a partnership with Clyde could move forward some of my other deals," she says. Kelly set up a dinner with their team, thinking they could discuss that objective. She walked out of the dinner with a job offer.
Deciding to make the leap: a framework for joining a startup
Kelly didn't take the job immediately. Although she was very interested, she wanted to make sure to do her due diligence. Her process for deciding went as follows:
- First, she checked the financials. She wanted to make sure that the company was well set up financially, so she asked the founders to circle back with her once they'd raised their Series A round of funding.
- Then Kelly asked for investor access, with the goal of understanding their belief in the company. "The bigger the investor, the more open the dialogue, I found," says Kelly, who encourages women considering taking a high-level role at a startup to do the same. "It lends insight from another perspective."
- She also wanted to make sure she liked the people and not just the investors. "I've always prioritized working in a company with people you really like. And that was my experience with the Clyde team," says Kelly, who appreciates the company's focus on creating a positive working environment with a diverse group of employees.
- It was also important for Kelly to understand the role and its growth potential. "A startup gives you an opportunity to do a lot of different things—including stuff you're probably not even qualified for," she says, smiling. "I asked questions around the role itself, but also how I'd interact with other projects because I think it's really important to own your career path."
- Then it was time to listen to her intuition. "It's our greatest ally," she says. "If you listen, the answers are always there." She was excited about the company and their vision and knew it was the right move for her. "It felt like their platform was just coming at the perfect time. This industry needs it."
Before officially accepting the job, Kelly asked herself three questions she'd learned from a previous mentor for how to evaluate a new opportunity:
- "Am I being paid fairly? Am I learning? And am I having fun?"
Clyde seemed like it would check all of those boxes for her, so it was time to move forward—and into that fateful negotiation.
Negotiating salaries at a startup as a woman
To prepare for her salary negotiation, Kelly did start by following the "rules." First, she did her research on what the market range looked like for the role. "Sometimes we miss that step and go in with a growth percentage on top of our previous salary, thinking, 'Oh, if I can just get 10% more than I'm making now, I'll be happy.'" she says. But she wanted to have a solid base rooted in fact, so she came up with a number that she felt represented her worth and the market.
"Then you beef it up a little bit," she says. "Go for it, but don't get too crazy!"
That's the number she went into the negotiations with. As she was working through Clyde's offer, her then-employer's counter, and the final package, she had to consider equity and other benefits, too. "Even though I obviously believe in the vision, my advice is that you can't really bank on equity," she says.
One thing that did stand out to her as a clear pro and added value (beyond salary), was Clyde's open vacation policy. "Early in my career, I was wired to believe that being busy and not taking vacation was a medal of honor. And I learned very quickly that it's just going to burn you out. I really loved that Clyde's policy is to take as much vacation as you'd like as long as you're performing," she says. She was pleased with the company's vacation fund matching, too, where employees can allocate a percentage of their paychecks for vacations, which Clyde matches up to a certain point.
"You have to look at your package from both a financial perspective as well as flexibilities or perks that go a long way in terms of your mental space and happiness in your role," says Kelly.
Even though she was negotiating this particular offer just as the Coronavirus pandemic was beginning, Kelly didn't settle for less than what she thought she deserved. "Barring situations where your livelihood is at risk, you shouldn't lose sight of your worth," she says.
And as we revealed above, it all worked out. She suggests that women looking to join startups follow her same approach—even if it means backing off from some of the traditional ways of negotiating. "In trust-basedrelationships, there's really no negotiation," she says. "If you know your value and your company knows your value, it's really just a discussion on what will make it feel like you're making the right decision."
Kelly's first few weeks with the Clyde team have confirmed to her that she did indeed make the right decision. If you're interested in joining her, follow Clyde's page for updates on open roles.
How Caitlin Boston went from having $62 in her checking account to paying off over $200k in student loans
She started asking friends and colleagues how much they made by throwing out a number and asking "Over or under?" That information led to a 40% pay bump.
Watch her viral video to hear her inspiring story and learn how you can follow her lead and earn your worth!!
The gender pay gap needs to change, but until it does, these tips can help.
Why Asking Matters and How To Do It The Right Way
"How much do you want?" can feel like a trick question when you're negotiating salary.
The first time I was asked this question, I had no idea what to say. I just knew that what I'd been offered wasn't enough. Having relocated from the U.S. to Argentina just a month prior, I was still learning the market and was worried about having my offer rescinded if I asked for too much. Knowledge is power in a negotiation, and in my ignorance of local norms and rates, I found myself feeling powerless and frustrated.
The hiring manager seized on my silence and asked me another question: "What's the minimum you'd accept?" Not knowing how to stall for more time, I blurted out my actual minimum. He flashed a toothy grin and said, "Done." I knew then and there that I'd gone way too low - his smile said it all.
I broke two cardinal rules of negotiation that day:
1) Think about the number you want and ask for more
2) Know your value in the market
I went home kicking myself for flubbing the negotiation and not asking for what I really wanted/deserved.
Some research has shown that women are much less likely to negotiate salary than men; an oft-cited study of MBA grads from Carnegie Mellon showed that only 7% percent of women negotiated their initial salary offers as compared to 57% percent of men. Other more recent data has shown that women do now negotiate at the same rate as men. Either way, the reality remains that as women, we are often socialized to be agreeable (see point 2 below)... and negotiating feels like the opposite of people pleasing, so it can be tough to do. All the same, it's of vital importance that we keep having these conversations.
When we don't negotiate, what's holding us back?
- We (erroneously) believe that what we've been offered is what we deserve - Economist and negotiation expert Linda Babcock said it best, "Women tend to assume that they will be recognized and rewarded for working hard and doing a good job. Unlike men, they haven't been taught that they can ask for more."
- We've been socialized to be agreeable, and we face backlash when we aren't - As women, we're taught to go with the flow and please others. And for the first half of our lives -- in school and at home -- we're rewarded for this with good grades and encouraging words from our parents and teachers. But patting us on the back for being agreeable doesn't do us any favors once we enter the workplace, where the results-oriented culture means that if you don't speak up for yourself and make your achievements known, then no one else will. Unfortunately, when we do speak up for ourselves, we're often penalized for being too assertive.
Why is this a problem?
- Experts believe that women's reluctance to ask for more, and the double bind they face when they do, are major contributors to the persistence of the gender pay gap.
- Future salaries are largely dependent upon previous earnings, so what may only be a few thousand dollars annually when you're starting out quickly compounds with each raise, salary-based bonus, or job switch (when you're often asked how much you were making). Some experts estimate that women can lose as much as 1.5 million dollars over the course of their careers as a result of not asking.
Try these expert tactics to make sure you come out on top
Although gender stereotypes can contribute to our reluctance to negotiate, there's no reason to let them prevent us from going to the table.
At PowerToFly, we sat down with lawyer and negotiation expert Nicole Page to get the inside scoop on how women can gain the confidence to be their own advocates and come out on top of any negotiation. She's successfully helped hundreds of clients get better offers and was kind enough to share her wisdom.
Keep these tips handy so that the next time you're considering a job offer, you don't make the same mistakes I did.
Hungry for even more negotiation skills? Check out our full interview with Nicole here, as well as our more recent chat and learn with another lawyer and negotiation pro, Anica John, where she addresses how you can answer the dreaded, "What are your salary expectations?" question.
We Asked An Expert Negotiations Lawyer
There are people in the world who hire lawyers to negotiate higher salaries for them, and then there are people like me who ask those lawyers to share their top tips on getting a better deal. At PowerToFly, we sat down with Nicole Page, Partner at Reavis Page Jump LLP, for a Lunch and Learn where she shared how she's raised countless salaries for her clients. Nicole has a large female clientele and was offering advice for all genders, but during the Lunch and Learn, she focused the conversation on how and why women should work on their negotiation skills. If you're a PowerToFly VIP, you can re-watch the entire talk here.
1. Make A Wish List
Nicole Page: The first and main thing that I tell anybody who's coming to me and saying they've got a new job offer, or they're thinking of transitioning to a new position, is to make a wish list of everything that they want out of their next opportunity. This really helps you focus on the things that are really important to you. It also just solidifies what you're going to be asking for - it helps you get clarity.
2. Rehearse And Prep For The Negotiation
NP: I would spend a fair amount of time preparing for the negotiation, you almost want to study for a negotiation like you would study for a test. Ask as many people in your industry what their experiences are, and just keep practicing what you're going to say. You're going to be nervous, and probably anxious - practicing out loud can help you be as prepared as you possibly can be.
3. Research Salary Ranges and Ask For More
NP: Without knowing the salary range of the position, you're negotiating in a vacuum. Knowledge is power, as they say, and I encourage people to network with other people in their industry and find out what they're being paid. I know it's not easy, but the only way to truly validate a salary range is to start asking what your colleagues and peers are making. After you've done your research and found out what the market rate is, you are going to think about the number that you want, and you're going to ask for more than that. I'm not saying you're going to double that, but generally, when you're negotiating, the idea is to make some sort of compromise. You want to be able to go down a little, and let them come up - meet them in the middle.
4. Ask In Person—Not Email
NP: I think while you're in the process of negotiation, it's not a bad idea to do it in conversation. It's a lot easier for someone to say no in an email, but in person, you're able to advocate for yourself and may be able to do some convincing. You also want to identify your leverage in any negotiation - that will help you decide what you're going to counter with, or if you're going to counter at all.
5. Be Clear, Confident And Direct About Your Ask
NP: It's very important to be clear, and not wishy-washy in a salary negotiation. If you want something, you've got to be very direct about it. You cannot assume that someone's going to know what you mean. They won't know what you mean, and in fact, they're disincentivized to know what you mean because the employer is essentially giving you a salary offer they're hoping you're going to accept. They don't want to pay you more if they don't have to. I'm not saying this to cast dispersions on employers—this is just business and how business works. If somebody can pay you less to do a job, they will because it's more profitable for them. So, you have to be direct, and you have to be comfortable asking for a higher salary.
6. Be Self-Promoting
NP: You must constantly remind your employer how valuable and how great you are, not just in times of negotiation. Be self-promoting—you're just undercutting yourself if you're not, and many women feel that in doing so they come across as bragging, and that's just not true. Every time you do something good, figure out a way to let your employer and your boss know. Not in an obnoxious way, but just be creative about it. Don't assume that anybody's watching or acknowledging or cares, except for you. You have to look out for yourself all the time.
7. Make Sure To Have Your Next Ask Ready
NP: You might go into a salary negotiation and say, 'I want x more dollars than you've offered.' And the employer might say, 'Well, we just can't do that.' You always want to have your next ask in line. What I mean by that is that in response to the employer, you could reply, 'Well, if you can't give me the salary I want, then I need you to give me a better title.' So, you want to have a step-by-step guide on your list and in your brain as you go into the negotiation of what you're going to say if they say no to an ask. Refer back to step one - make that list!
8. Remember, It's NOT A Confrontation - It's a Precedent For Yourself
NP: Nobody likes a confrontation, and if you go into a negotiation thinking it is, you're just going to increase your own anxiety level. A negotiation is really just a conversation you're engaging in while being protective of yourself and your needs. Studies have shown that 5% of women and 60% of men engage in salary negotiations. This means that from the very beginning of your career, you are setting a precedent for yourself and what you deserve. Setting a precedent may not always mean salary, this could be a sign-on bonus, vacation time, or even general compensation throughout your time at the company. The first offer a company gives you, most of the time, is not their best and final offer. This is your opportunity to say that you want more or you want more of something - stay calm, and set a precedent.
9. If You Need Help, Find An Attorney
NP: There are a few reasons why people consult an attorney to help with the negotiation process. First, negotiating is hard, and at the end of the day, some people are just really uncomfortable doing so. If you're one of those people and have the resources, it really is so much easier to have an unbiased party negotiating for you.
Second, from experience, I have a lot of information about what other people in their fields are making. That kind of information is really valuable because it helps the person see if their salary is in line with the market or if they're really being underpaid.
In both cases, I'm completely subterranean. I'll work out the whole negotiation strategy and the counter-offer to the employment proposal, and their employer never even knows that they ever hired an attorney. It's almost like just having a counsel and coach to help you structure it.
10. Ultimately, It Might Be Uncomfortable, But Just Ask
NP: I think it may also help everyone to know that men are asking. The men are asking for raises, and they're getting them - there's no reason for women not to ask too. At the end of the day, if you want to get ahead, you have to put yourself out there - the only way to get what you want is to ask.